Optic Debate: U.S. Versus Foreign Made with Havoc 2-1

Ladies and gentlemen of the GOAT GANG—it's been a minute. Happy New Year, salutations, and I hope those resolutions aren't already in the trash. We can laugh together instead of cry. Last week, we spotted the majestic Havoc 2-1 spittin' truths on X. Don't be fooled by his illustrious looks and excellent performances as an action man over at Dirty Civilian—he's exactly the brain we need to pick to crank up the endless debate on foreign vs. U.S.-made gear. We snagged him for another interview and got some much-needed optics wisdom. 

In your recent post, you got into the foreign versus U.S. made optics debate. What sparked that thread—was it a specific community discussion or something from your own gear failures? 

It was a few different posts that got me thinking about it this time in particular. As you probably know, topics have a cycle in the gun world, and this just seemed to be the topic du jour. 

You mentioned two Holosuns failing on you in the last year, calling yourself an outlier. What happened? Do you think it is abnormal or par for the course? 

Yep, I had two Holosun Aimpoint T2 clones fail, one just ceased to turn on, the other could only adjust the brightness up, never down, and couldn't be turned off and have the brightness reset unless I took out the battery. 

It's hard to know if I'm an outlier or not. I treat my gear harder than most and have a reputation for breaking things that "never break" for others. Turns out, if you never use your stuff, it probably never breaks. 

You noted American-made optics are generally superior in durability and quality control, but overpriced for features. From your experience, what's a prime example of a U.S. optic that justifies the premium, and one that's just not worth it? 

One that justifies the premium for me is the Leupold 2-10. It performs incredibly at every magnification level, is built like a tank, and has great reticles. I've used budget scopes, but they never measure up. 

For one not worth it, this is going to be unpopular, but probably the NightForce ATACR 1-8. It's a good LPVO, but it doesn't do anything exceptionally better than its budget counterparts, certainly not four to eight times better. 

On the flip side, Chinese optics range from 'surprisingly good' to outright trash. What's your go-to test or red flag to spot a solid foreign-made optic versus a dud? 

That's the issue. There is no test or consistent red flag to look for. The most you can go off of is reputation. Holosun is starting to get a better one. The best advice I can give is this: Look for trends, don't be an early adopter, and don't have high expectations of Chinese knockoffs. 

How do environmental factors like extreme weather or rough handling play into the optic divide? Have you seen patterns in durability between brands? 

Environment and abuse play a huge part. The quality of an optic is irrelevant if its treated gently or not used at all. Cold and wet weather wreak havoc on optics. 

What I have noticed is that people who are going to really abuse their optics, overwhelmingly have higher end, U.S. made optics. People who train more casually, or not at all, have cheaper Chinese optics. 

This creates an interesting situation, where the U.S. made optics are put to the test, and sometimes break, and the Chinese optics last "forever" in the public's eye. 

You emphasized having a backup red dot for any footprint. What's your advice on building a reliable backup system on a budget, especially for folks new to this? 

If you are that concerned about budget, then your training time and budget are also probably limited. Which is OK. That's MOST people. I would advise to get what you can afford to get, and get training. Don't let not having a "nice" optic stop you from training. 

Ideally, I would say save up and get something quality first. The warranty on most premium optic brands is really good, if you are unlucky enough to break it. 

You also talked about investing in footprints like ACRO over specific optics. How did you land on those? Can you elaborate on necessity? 

As people build out their gear, they are going to end up with multiple set-ups. It's just the nature of this pursuit. Having the same mounting footprint between optics allows you to do a couple of things. 

1. Have a backup optic in case one goes down. You can only shoot one gun at a time, so, having the ability to scavenge an optic off of one build to another is great. 
2. Simplify your "supply chain." Fewer footprints means fewer mounting plates, screw lengths, adapters, etc., that come along with mounting optics. 

I went with the ACRO footprint and the Aimpoint micro footprint because they offer very good durability, and are widely available from optics all up and down the price list. 

Durability of the mounting platform is very important. Optics take a lot of stress and impact, and solely relying on a few screws of dubious quality to hold the thing you are aiming with on your gun, isn't great. The ACRO and Micro footprint offer a lot of durability in their design. 

Having wide adoption up and down the price scale lets me have cheaper backup options, or optics for builds not intended for "real" use (Airsoft, goofy builds, etc.,) while still using the mounts I already own.  

For someone running mixed gear, how important is footprint standardization in training or real world scenarios? Any stories where a quick swap saved the day?

It's not the most important thing, but it's a really nice thing to have and I wish I had adopted that standardization earlier. I have had a few situations where I needed to change out an optic last minute, either for training, a match, or filming a video with Dirty Civilian, and having common footprints have made that very easy to do. 

You applauded ideological buys for U.S.-made but acknowledge financial realities. How do you balance patriotism with pragmatism when recommending gear to your friends and followers? 

Very simply. The first priority is that you are trained and prepared. That is how you become a good American first. IF that means you have to run non-U.S. gear, due to budget reasons, then so be it, that is the first priority. 

If you are already on that train of becoming better trained and more prepared, and you can afford to support U.S. manufacturing, I think you should. Our country is better when our industry is healthy and doing your part to support that is valuable. 

Is there a tipping point where ideology overrides cost—say, for critical setups versus casual range use? What's your personal line there? 

For me personally, I will absolutely not run anything "knockoff" on my "serious use" guns. If I am setting up a gun for concealed carry, home defense, or "2nd Amendment" reasons, I am only trusting very reputable equipment, that I have personally vetted myself through training and abuse. 

You teased lasers as the "really interesting topic." Without spoiling too much, why do you think the foreign vs. U.S. debate gets even spicier there? 

I think foreign lasers are advancing on the U.S. made ones VERY rapidly. The Holosun IRIS and SMS trinity come to mind as recent options that are hitting WAY out of their weight class. If they can manage to keep QC and maintain durability, they very well may sink the U.S. options for the civilian market entirely. 

Same goes for thermals. 

Drawing from your background, how has the optics landscape evolved since your service days, and what's one thing you'd push for in today's training environment? 

The optics landscape has changed a good bit since my GWOT days. The big names are still there—Trijicon, Aimpoint, Eotech, Leupold. For the most part they are still great options. The market has expanded wildly, and competition has been driving innovation. The legacy brands need to keep innovating to stay relevant outside of their established mil contracts. 

For the brothers building their first setup, what's the one optics myth (foreign or U.S.) you'd debunk to save them time and money? 

There is no do it all optic. You have to pick a use case, ideal range, and do a needs assessment. Then pick an optic setup for that. There is no easy button. 

Do you have anything coming down the pipe that you can share with us? Where can we find more of you? 

My life is a whirlwind. I'm getting married very soon. Things with Dirty Civilian are going to be picking up speed. I've got more training coming up at DARC and other places... as always, find me on X or IG at HAVOCTWOONE, and www.Havoctwoone.com.

Conclusion

There you have it, GOAT GANG—Havoc 2-1 dropping straight fire on the optics battlefield, reminding us that while Uncle Sam’s gear might flex harder in the durability department, training is what is most important—and there’s no shame in picking up what your wallet can handle. Whether you’re stacking Holosuns on a budget, or going full patriot with Leupold greatness, the key is getting out there, learning new skills, training hard, and not letting gear snobbery gatekeep your grind. As the Zoomers say, big ups to Havoc for the tactical wisdoms; make sure you go follow him on his socials and hit up his website www.havoctwoone.com—and don’t forget to pay Dirty Civilian a visit too. 

And, even though half the country is living in a f*cking Ice Age (looking at you, Michigan), don’t forget to ask your mom to pick you up some new T-shirt swag from our website. Better yet, just take her credit card. She won’t notice. I mean, she will definitely notice—but you know who else will? The goat rescues we support whenever you buy one of our shirts. Do it for the goats. Do it for the fitness goalz. Do it for the New Year's resolution you’re failing, and do it so your boy can get some more gently used MREs. Gizmo Gliders are still in stock. Go snatch one up before they’re gone.

Image Credit: Dirty Civilian YouTube channel. Video Link: Land Nav Basics Made Easy | Maps, Compass, & Protractors